And yes Im a minimum wage slave right now. My parents have disowned me (long story)and now that Im not a free for all happy-go-lucky atheist anymore I have to start at the bottom legally (no more stealing).

(No that was not a low blow –I was not one of the good atheists and even the good atheists I would gleefully corrupt “wake up” to the world of michavellian pleasure you see. but no more!)

all the best to you
your friend exatheist

LIVE MAN WALKING

Of course I know there are all kinds of atheists out there. Both the kinds you speak of and the kinds I am talking about. I think if we are honest we have to concede to that point. For me I am speaking from my own experience. Nobody is paying me to be on here and I sure dont have anything to gain by laying my life on here.

Now I’m not a Christian (or Jewish or hindu etc) I dont belong to any religion organized or unorganized. I merely understand there is a Source now. But I will say this: most of the organizations actually feeding the hungry in Africa and building wells in a village by village basis are not atheistic or secular humanist they are catholic , protestant and some orthodox (in the Ethipian regions). As a black American myself I have been to that area to get in touch with my roots.(And Im very dark skinned so I have also experienced lots of stuff in other ways but I wont get into that here) .I spent alot of time there and can tell you that I found no “Carl Sagan Society to help the poor” . sorry I wish I could say I did! And I am NOT a promtor of the religions. The people that were there (especially the Americans) were religous types. Im sure there are “Atheists for Africa” relief groups but I didnt run into them is all.

And if my “one example of a poor atheist” does not sway the argument neither does your example of a vague atheists sway the example. “Your good atheist friends” is a vague enough statement that could be used to justify any “good thing” you see? Most examples of referring to concrete examples are like that. Either they are not enough (as you claim mine is) or they are too vague and general as yours are. Lets say you know a thousand “good atheist” friends is that enough to sway the argument to a statistically significant number in a proper survey? No its not. And my point in mentioning my own friend was not to present some sort of conclusive argument. I am merely talking about my own experience.

Also in terms of “mutual civility” sorry I would call that more like “mutual balance of terror” (at least in some cases). I dont hurt your tribe because I know you can hurt mine etc. I find Scientific Agnostics like Margeret Atwood much more convincing then atheists. Atwood said “Listen I dont know if there is a God but Im not going to act as if their isnt. Im not going to act like an atheist.” (Toronto Word on the Street Festival 2003) What she meant is that being an atheist is a more existential choice. As Sartre said a “radically free choice” So free that if I, as an atheist DECIDE, that one day I will stop doing good to the rest of my tribesmen (and I speak figuritively for all gradations that a ‘tribe’ comes in on our planet) and can do it secretly enough (think Machevilli) so that my fellows dont know Im pulling a fast one on them, then heck there is no condemnation of my work from any source. In other words who cares? And if I have some sort of vestige of ‘conscience’ well forget that rotting religiously inspired (and maybe evolutionarilly inworked) old thing, Ill just crush it under my will. Thats what Im saying.

Hey I love atheists, I still have friends who are atheists. And if you want to know something I dont think of people in labels like that “theist” , “atheist” etc in my everyday life. Its only for the purpose of discussions like these that I use it.

As for atheists doing good you say: “This is not fake or feigned in any way” as you state. Nevermind the obvious question I could ask “how do you know?” (because that can go for everybody) –no Id like to say: hell Im not saying that THOSE atheists are actively hiding evil intentions etc. Perhaps I should clarify. I see atheists who have not awakened to what is allowable (to oneself) as an atheist and those who still like doing good because they are nice people. Those nice people though can at any time turn to my kind of atheist (the kind I was–please do not condemn me for it) if they want. Im saying there is nothing stopping them except their own existential decision. Also saying that you know atheists who do only good an NO theists or religious people who ever do any good would be wrong. You come close to saying that by dogmatically adding there are “many” theist and relgious types who never do any good. Did you count them? What is ‘many’ in a planet of billions.
Lets by honest my friend there are bad and good on both sides many and few etc.

But my main point is (and its a logical point that does not need to endlessly refer to outside empirical evidence to prove itself (ie its self evident like a math equation) is that when Im an atheist either a good one (and of course there are good guys who are atheists) or a bad one the atheist has no internal law he abides by to prevent him from changing if he wants. You might say ‘hey wait a theist doesnt either right? He only has fear of the ‘divine law’ big deal? Yes but at least he has THAT. You see? What did I have when I was an atheist? I had the outward law of my local government. And we know how that is working. People desire to avoid punishment and crime when its based on outward earthly and the idea of ‘divine’ authority. Hey I stole $120 from a cash register when I was 16 and they never caught me. But if you believe in a Divine –”where ya gonna go when He comes for ya” Im saying its a more efficient system of belief to reign in any potential evil I want to do. Of course there are incorrigible people on both sides, but the mass of humanity are not psychotic, thought they are more easily tempted when you have only earthly athority. You dont have to point to outside evidence to counter or back that point up (“ie I know lots of good lawyers they arent all crooks” etc) because one can just progress from ones on internal evidence (ie “yes Im a nice person but seriously who would know if I took that $150 now that the owner is in the back talking to my mom?”). And if an atheist doesnt have that ‘bent’ to his character (not temptable) it doesnt mean he cant acquire it without threat from some invisible diety. A religious person doesnt have that luxury. Of course there are religious types (not counting those who are just pretending) who do bad but they have a system to stop it and even confess and turn from it. They have this divine authority looking at them.

Listen I knoooow what that might sound like to an atheist. I was one for a long time. An atheist would say “hey your saying you need the fear of God to be good but I can be good because I want to” (yes and I would answer : “for as long as YOU want to, what will happen if you decide to go (secretly so as not to be caught by the police) bad? Will you be punished by the great Atheist God?” There is no such thing as the Atheist God of course. And yes I do have a view of the human race as not being able to be good indefinitely merely on the basis of continued radically free existential individual decisions to keep on “being good”. I have yet to meet an angelic person (religious, atheistic or even just a plain old theist like myself). I believe I dont have to prove that by citing endless examples of bad people because I too am human and know what it feels like to be tempted is all. I figure the rest of the species evolved like I did (unless you think like this neo-nazi group in the states said: white people are more highly evolved and blacks are lower on the evolutionary scale, their black (ie ape like) skin proves it.” But I dont want to gross you out with that type of person. I am fully convinced that you believe the human species (all of it) is equally evolved!

So you have to be religious to be actually good?–
You might say “yeah but I dont want to be religious!” Well neither do I. I said Im a theist. Not a Baptist or a Catholic or a Sikh for that matter. Its that which energized me to walk fair and square with others.

As for religious people I met more of them in poor African places than any atheists. Im not saying this to condemn atheists. And Im not saying it to uphold religous people! Im saying what I experienced just as you say you experienced but I am not presenting my experience as some sort of conclusive proof. Not at all. By the way I know more than “one atheist” but I could give a thousand examples and you could do that does not prove on. Also your statement of: “all the things Christianity calls for but Christians (and other theists) do not necessary deliver on.” needs to be clarified. If you mean all or even most Christians are merely clever devils out to wrought bad things on people I have to disagree. I have seen many of them and they are ok. Nope I am not one of them and I dont believe in their Mass or their preachers etc. But to condemn all or most of the Christian folk (or others) as one rotten group is an obvious faulty progression from premise to conclusion.

Actually, I could say that about all Americans because of their rep on the world scene currently. (Im not an American myself hope you are okay with us Canadians!). I know enough that there are Americans who are either republicans or democrats. Ive seen this in religious people. Just another tribe. Its would be extremely easy for me to say: “most americans are warmongers and even their feeble promoting of Gore is a lie, they have shown they dont care about the earth time and time again (my country has the pollution that flows over from NYC to prove it too).” But I refuse to say that and to lump them altogther.

However I do know exCatholics who are convinced of the ‘evil’ of the current catholic church because they had a miserable childhood under religous types who abused thier groups principles. I dont like arguments based on emotion. Im not accusing you of this because you sound intelligent, you understand that to condemn ALL or MOST of any group “X” is a logical fallacy.

On any account I really appreciate that you didnt ignore my comment but responded. I wish we could meet at a coffee shop and talk in person.

Finally in response to your satement:

“In short, everyone does what is best for themselves. Atheists also look to the future of their species. Theists look to the future after death. Which is a better set of logic?”

Atheists look to the future of their species? Really ? Forgive me but “who says”? Ive already talked about that above but now to your second part: “Theists look to the future after death” Huh? Did I say that? Im a theist and I look forward to BOTH the future of this species on our world (and others) as well as to any future after death. Its more like and/also rather than either/or. There is nothing in theism OR religion that says you cant want both. A dogmatic conlusion like your last statement is not a “set of logic” Sorry its not logical at all. Its passionate view of what atheists and nonatheists believe in your opinion. But logical? Hardly.

Its a myth that theists dont care about the future of this species. I care very much about the earth and our future as a tribe. As for religious people there are a whole boatload of scientists, geologists and others who care very much about the future and are religious. Or do you automatically assume that because one belives in an after life he by default only cares for that life? That is an obvious statment of error. Maybe a religious person who has misunderstood their religion but not one who didnt. Their own bible says “And God will destroy those who destroy the earth”. Just because there are corrupt cops on the Chicago police force does not mean that by default being a Chicago cop means you are corrupt.
The argument looks like this:
Chicago cops are corrupt
I am Chicago cop therefore I am corrupt.

Theists look (only) to the future after death
I am a theist therefore I look only to the future after death.

The first premise is faulty because it contains an untruth. Its is not logically impossible to be a theist and care about the future of the earth/species.

The better set of logic, to answer your question is one not based on faulty premises but rather:

There are atheists AND thiests who care about the future of the species/earth just like there are atheists AND theists who dont care either way.

My good atheist friends are not just good friends they are truly good people doing things with no alterior motive: i.e. helping the poor, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, listening to the silenced…all the things Christianity calls for but Christians (and other theists) do not necessary deliver on.

Your one example of a poor atheist does not sway the argument. I can present many examples where the same idea paints a negative view on Theists. During WWII Catholics in Germany called on the pope to relieve them of their obligation to the state. The Pope told them to “Render to Caesar what is Caesar’s” and they did. The fear was not solely of jail or death, but enternal damnation or, at the very least, purgatory. God’s wrath creates slaves in some cases.

The atheists I know do not run nude in the forest or commit mass murder not because of reprieve but because they belong to species where there is a mutual understanding of civility. This is not fake or feigned in any way. This is real, unlike that of many theists who do good only to remain in God’s good graces and to avoid his wrath.

In short, everyone does what is best for themselves. Atheists also look to the future of their species. Theists look to the future after death. Which is a better set of logic?

P.S. the worst thing about being an atheist as long as I was was this: once you did all the stuff you always wanted to, that those ‘crazy religious’ people tell you is wrong. Once you do all that shit for a long time, you get up and say ‘what do I do for an encore?’ It actually gets boring! How many whores do you sleep with? How many things do you buy? How much money makes you happy? The more I did what I wanted the more it got ‘same old same old.’ You ever seen that old Twilight Zone where the guy goes to hell and hell is being able to do whatever you want all the time? In the end the guy was screaming mad–he couldn’t take it! sex money drugs sex money drugs over and over and over. so fucking true and sad! I should know.

Now that Im a theist I want to help others and damn it it feels good to know there is a God who made these others so that helping them is worth it, knowing they are not just ‘things’ or ‘animals’ worth nothing. They are valuable souls because God made them not some chance collision of particles millions of years ago. It was God behind that collision. He is an artist, he builds because he loves. Evil happens because WE have free will.

Theist

Live man walking

The imagination. The arts. The entertainment. If Dawkins in correct and we have evolved without the aid or existence of God then there is only one purpose to life and that is our own enjoyment. Why bother trying to replicate our genes? They will do that for us. Our job is to enjoy life and looking to reason it out is not worth the time because, face it, there is no reason. We cannot know anything for certain because it is our genes trying to make us do whatever they can to ensure their replication.

however, he is also giving us almost nothing to fill those ‘un-foundations’. to me, i don’t know where else to look but to the history of philosophy and the justification of reason.

for the past year or so i’ve been reading an amalgamation of hegel (phenomenoloy, right), wittgenstein (investigations), R.G. Collingwood (history of ideas), robert brandom (articulating reasons, making it explicit), and now i’m getting into T.H. Green (prolegomena to ethics). i think what i’m finding is a really interesting tradition of linguistic philosophy that is anti-representational, all the while maintaining a KIND of theory of truth, or how we ‘do’ truth. more later!

/a

ps. could you email me about the project we spoke about on the phone last week? i need to ask a few questions again. thanks!